End of DRM

Started by Bubbaspanky · 21 posts · 2,877 views

  1. #1
    Probably not so quick but this is from /.

    "The Canadian online music store Puretracks (a store I have generally avoided because of their Microsoft-specific solutions) has announced that it will immediately start selling part of its catalog as DRM-free MP3 files. The site's unprotected catalog, which includes artists such as The Barenaked Ladies and Sarah McLachlan, will initially feature only 50,000 of its 1.3 million tracks, but their number will grow weekly. The Globe and Mail says the move will likely profit Puretracks because its DRM-free-music will be playable on iPods. It quotes one industry watcher saying 'We're seeing the death of DRM.'" Essentially Puretracks is relaxing the major-label mandated DRM rules that it had initially applied to all labels, even the indies that wanted no part of DRM.
  2. #2
    Bubbaspanky wrote:
    Probably not so quick but this is from /.

    "The Canadian online music store Puretracks (a store I have generally avoided because of their Microsoft-specific solutions) has announced that it will immediately start selling part of its catalog as DRM-free MP3 files. The site's unprotected catalog, which includes artists such as The Barenaked Ladies and Sarah McLachlan, will initially feature only 50,000 of its 1.3 million tracks, but their number will grow weekly. The Globe and Mail says the move will likely profit Puretracks because its DRM-free-music will be playable on iPods. It quotes one industry watcher saying 'We're seeing the death of DRM.'" Essentially Puretracks is relaxing the major-label mandated DRM rules that it had initially applied to all labels, even the indies that wanted no part of DRM.



    While I understand a "little" bit why studios want DRM, it is indeed a joke. CD's have never had DRM on them and never will. Most music is sold in CD format still. Umm Do you people see a pattern here?

    I am all for DRM free music. I have tons of MP3's but most are just sitting on my HD doing nothing. I do not even listen to them. I can honestly say that 75-80% of my music on my Ipod is ripped from my own CD's.

    The thing I do not like about buying MP3's is they usually only release them in 128KB formats. maybe 160. I am very picky and want VBR MP3's encoded with the lame alt_preset encoding. I have never, and probably won't ever, buy an AAC formated file. I do not like AAC period.

    So if they want to sell them to me they really need to up the quality anti. In the mean time I will just download some as usual but for the most part I will just buy the CD and rip it myself. I also like having a master on hand anyway with art work and liner notes etc....
  3. #3
    Unfortunately, that article is outdated already. Via boingboing.net it seems that several people have discovered that they haven't removed the drm.

    http://www.boingboing.net/2007/02/22/canad...ownload_st.html


    The emusic service has drm free tunes btw. They are mostly focused on indie labels at this point however.
  4. #4
    it does say only part of it's mp3s are DRM free for now and it'll slowly grow. I think once a few companies do this, all of them will.
  5. #5
    Actually Paladin, a lot of CD's do have DRM. In fact, windows Vista was designed to make sure that DRM stays in place when you rip a cd. DRM was also involved in the whole Sony CD Rootkit scandal.

    And not to bust your chops, but AAC+ is mp4 or the bigger, better version of mp3 from the same group that brought you mp3. I'd switch the station to AAC+ in a heartbeat if Live supported it. And if I ever manage to launch outside of live, it will be AAC+.

  6. #6
    Atomm wrote:
    Actually Paladin, a lot of CD's do have DRM. In fact, windows Vista was designed to make sure that DRM stays in place when you rip a cd. DRM was also involved in the whole Sony CD Rootkit scandal.

    And not to bust your chops, but AAC+ is mp4 or the bigger, better version of mp3 from the same group that brought you mp3. I'd switch the station to AAC+ in a heartbeat if Live supported it. And if I ever manage to launch outside of live, it will be AAC+.


    My portable mp3 player doesn't support AAC. I admit, I haven't kept track of the latest formats, and their compression/quality. I thought about switching to Ogg/Vorbis a couple years ago, but I'm glad I didn't. Storage just gets cheaper by the week, high quality VBR mp3's are all the quality _I_ need, and I like the compatibility of MP3's.

    iTunes will be one of the last music download services to end DRM, because it locks ppl into it's own hardware. Microsoft will only end DRM on it's music downloads when Apple does. Looking at Vista, it seems Microsoft is highly invested in the DRM idea, and they won't get away from that until forced to. The first company that offers mp3's without DRM (AND offer a good selection) will be the first company to challenge iTunes. . .if they can avoid going bankrupt from court costs.
  7. #7
    http://www.iload.com/

    This was the ad that showed up on this page. I can't click it, so I googled it. This looks pretty cool especially for my using it on the station.

  8. #8
    Atomm wrote:
    Actually Paladin, a lot of CD's do have DRM. In fact, windows Vista was designed to make sure that DRM stays in place when you rip a cd. DRM was also involved in the whole Sony CD Rootkit scandal.

    And not to bust your chops, but AAC+ is mp4 or the bigger, better version of mp3 from the same group that brought you mp3. I'd switch the station to AAC+ in a heartbeat if Live supported it. And if I ever manage to launch outside of live, it will be AAC+.



    No normal CD I have ever purchased has ever had DRM on it. If there are they are only a very few so this does not come into the argument man, sorry. Most people have normal CD players in their cars etc.. So the few you say that have DRM, would not play on it so would not sell well so they would not have it on there for very long. market forces my friend.

    AAC as a sound format itself is fine, it is the fact it only runs on the Ipod and the DRM attached to it that sucks. MP3's are just way better as everything plays them. The ease of use, compatibility, edit-ability and simplicity of use simply cannot be beat.

    Even if you could change to AAC you would be remiss to do so as it is not much batter then the MP3 Pro you use now. As a matter of fact MP3 pro sounds better in the same file size.
  9. #9
    Paladin wrote:
    No normal CD I have ever purchased has ever had DRM on it. If there are they are only a very few so this does not come into the argument man, sorry. Most people have normal CD players in their cars etc.. So the few you say that have DRM, would not play on it so would not sell well so they would not have it on there for very long. market forces my friend.

    AAC as a sound format itself is fine, it is the fact it only runs on the Ipod and the DRM attached to it that sucks. MP3's are just way better as everything plays them. The ease of use, compatibility, edit-ability and simplicity of use simply cannot be beat.

    Even if you could change to AAC you would be remiss to do so as it is not much batter then the MP3 Pro you use now. As a matter of fact MP3 pro sounds better in the same file size.


    I believe there ARE CD's with protection on them that play on MOST normal CD players. I'll go check my issue of Maximum PC and be back with an edit. . .

    EDIT:
    Yup, the CD they picture in the article is one by Velvet Revolver, and it tries to put DRM software on your machine when you put it in your CD/DVD drive. Doesn't do anything to a normal CD player. It should play on most CD players. It's not red book standard, and they can't use that CD logo that is on most CD's. It has a similar logo and says, "Enhanced CD"

    More info, and a work-around.
    http://weblogs.asp.net/christoc/archive/20.../08/151147.aspx
    (Blog link, seems safe for work)

    They're making DVD's this way as well now. . .some anyway. I couldn't rip "Silent Hill" usiing DVD Shrink (For personal use, on my stand-alone DIVX player), I had to do some work for that one. Forget what it was I did now, but Google is your friend. 🙂

    Further edit: I can't image this copy protection HELPS the accurate reproduction of the music/video. . .kinda makes me think of Macrovision for VHS. I'd often get a crappy picture just playing an original VHS movie if it had Macrovision..
  10. #10
    I do think the record companies are starting to back off DRM, but it's still here.

    I still disagree Paladin. I've tested some streaming and I can go as low as 32K and sounds as good as 64k MP3 Pro. Also, believe it or not, MP3 has more restrictive licensing than AAC. Last, AAC is not proprietary to Apple. They just chose it over MP3 because of it's compression to file size and it's ability to use DRM.

    But then again, Steve Jobs said publicly that DRM needs to end. So, I don't know.....

    I rip everything for my ipod as MP3, but I'd switch in a second if the station supported AAC.

  11. #11
    I have not read that link yet but I will say ahead of time that CD's do not have DRM. Some have had copy protection, it is not the same thing. DRM is management in which the media and device it is to be used on have to agree to conditions to work. Such as a unique serial number in the case of Itunes on your Ipod etc...

    Copy protection is just a way for them to try and make the CD's harder to rip. No management involved in the CD itself. The stand alone player does not know it is there as Doc said, it ignores it. Not DRM.

    This is of course a condition of the technology not being available when the Red Book CD specs were finalized but they did not put any effort into it as CD burners did not really exists then. They never though people would be able to copy them. It has not really hurt CD sales as much as they predicted.

    What you mentioned Doc is an attempt to do what I would call sudo DRM as that is only on the computer side etc... Again none on CD players themselves.
    That really is just another form of copy protection in the end.

    Atomm if AAC is not proprietary to Apple then why are no other players allowed to play/support AAC formated files?
    The basic AAC format itself may not have started out to be but with the changed/additions Apples added to it, it really is in the end. That is why no other player can play Itunes songs. It is the DRM and licensing that Apples owns period.
  12. #12
    Paladin wrote:
    I have not read that link yet but I will say ahead of time that CD's do not have DRM. Some have had copy protection, it is not the same thing. DRM is management in which the media and device it is to be used on have to agree to conditions to work. Such as a unique serial number in the case of Itunes on your Ipod etc...

    Copy protection is just a way for them to try and make the CD's harder to rip. No management involved in the CD itself. The stand alone player does not know it is there as Doc said, it ignores it. Not DRM.

    This is of course a condition of the technology not being available when the Red Book CD specs were finalized but they did not put any effort into it as CD burners did not really exists then. They never though people would be able to copy them. It has not really hurt CD sales as much as they predicted.

    What you mentioned Doc is an attempt to do what I would call sudo DRM as that is only on the computer side etc... Again none on CD players themselves.
    That really is just another form of copy protection in the end.


    Yup, not DRM, the players would need to cooperate. The non-standard CD's are more like copy-protection. . .keeps you from ripping them by dumping software onto your computer when you have autoplay enabled.

    Gotta keep them terms straight 🙂
  13. #13
    DocJon wrote:
    Yup, not DRM, the players would need to cooperate. The non-standard CD's are more like copy-protection. . .keeps you from ripping them by dumping software onto your computer when you have autoplay enabled.

    Gotta keep them terms straight 🙂



    Just FYI, this is not an argument, just a cool convo 😉
  14. #14
    Paladin,

    You are confusing two issues. AAC is independent of the DRM that Apple adds to it. Both Windows Media Player and Winamp have plugins that allow them to play AAC and I believe AAC+. However, that is as long as they are ripped like an MP3.

    Now, if you buy a song from ITunes, they add their DRM to the AAC file. I think AAC is getting a bad rap because of this, but as a stand alone product compared to MP3, I think AAC+ is far superior.

    As for the DRM from ITunes.... A little program called Fairplay will take care of that.... ;-)

  15. #15
    Atomm wrote:
    Paladin,

    You are confusing two issues. AAC is independent of the DRM that Apple adds to it. Both Windows Media Player and Winamp have plugins that allow them to play AAC and I believe AAC+. However, that is as long as they are ripped like an MP3.

    Now, if you buy a song from ITunes, they add their DRM to the AAC file. I think AAC is getting a bad rap because of this, but as a stand alone product compared to MP3, I think AAC+ is far superior.

    As for the DRM from ITunes.... A little program called Fairplay will take care of that.... ;-)



    Atomm you are right. I did not mean to say that the AAC file format in itself is bad.

    I said above: "AAC as a sound format itself is fine, it is the fact it only runs on the Ipod and the DRM attached to it that sucks"
    Sorry I was not clear there. I should have said "fact it only runs on the Ipod with its DRM attached to it that sucks"

    I understand that AAC was licensed, and changed though, by Apple. Apple did not just use the off the shelf format BTW. They did change it a bit, Steve Jobs himself had input on the sound. How much was changed from the generic level, I am unsure.

    See the problem here is that AAC is used by ITunes. It has DRM slapped on it.

    So now everything you can purchase that is in AAC format has that DRM so basically it is DRM ONLY.
    So basically it is useless by anyone else. Apple changed it in such a way that no other player can play those songs.

    So in the end man it is still APPLE ONLY. It is still DRM ONLY in which Itunes is, so it is useless.

    OOG is reported to be very good, no one uses that really. AAC as a generic format is good but no one uses that.

    Player manufactures do not support the, not as popular, generic formats that are not as common. AAC without DRM is like OOG in that regard. Not a common format.


    So that leaves us with AAC being useless for anything but iTunes. 😉

    I like that Steve Jobs is trying to make these DRM free but will he allow them to be played on non iPods??? That part will be very very interesting...
  16. #16
    I guess the point I'm trying to make is you can rip to AAC just as you can rip to MP3. If you do that, then there will be no DRM and you get better sound quality at lower bitrates.
  17. #17
    Atomm wrote:
    I guess the point I'm trying to make is you can rip to AAC just as you can rip to MP3. If you do that, then there will be no DRM and you get better sound quality at lower bitrates.



    I am sure you may be right for web streaming but for stand alone files nothing but your actual computer will play it. 🙂
    Kidding aside I think AAC is only good once you hit AAC 224kbit/sec, 330 is better. Then you are getting into the same file sizes as MP3 so I will take MP3 for compatibility. So that is basically it 😉


    Weird though that no other company, that I know of, adds DRM free AAC support in their players.
    Ipod can play DRM free AAC though so there is one 😉
    When you rip your own Cd's with iTunes by default does Apple(you) convert your CD into DRM free AAC, DRM enabled AAC or MP3 format?

    ITunes MP3 compression is a joke though man. They do not do it correctly at all. Unless they changed it recently to use standard external LAME compression. I admit I have not looked into it with the newer ITunes but historically it is better to rip outside of iTunes.

    Ffor home use LAME VBR encoded MP3's are still best to me. Everything supports those and they still sound great if encoded properly.

    If AAC is better for on-line then that is cool but your MP3 Pro songs sound really good being streamed. HD space is not an issue these days so who cares. Bandwidth is not an issue as much as it used to be really these days. Streaming is streaming etc...

    Seriously if streaming AAC is better, why does Live365 not use that format? I am curious.
  18. #18
    Paladin wrote:
    I am sure you may be right for web streaming but for stand alone files nothing but your actual computer will play it. 🙂
    Kidding aside I think AAC is only good once you hit AAC 224kbit/sec, 330 is better. Then you are getting into the same file sizes as MP3 so I will take MP3 for compatibility. So that is basically it 😉
    Weird though that no other company, that I know of, adds DRM free AAC support in their players.
    Ipod can play DRM free AAC though so there is one 😉
    When you rip your own Cd's with iTunes by default does Apple(you) convert your CD into DRM free AAC, DRM enabled AAC or MP3 format?

    ITunes MP3 compression is a joke though man. They do not do it correctly at all. Unless they changed it recently to use standard external LAME compression. I admit I have not looked into it with the newer ITunes but historically it is better to rip outside of iTunes.

    Ffor home use LAME VBR encoded MP3's are still best to me. Everything supports those and they still sound great if encoded properly.

    If AAC is better for on-line then that is cool but your MP3 Pro songs sound really good being streamed. HD space is not an issue these days so who cares. Bandwidth is not an issue as much as it used to be really these days. Streaming is streaming etc...

    Seriously if streaming AAC is better, why does Live365 not use that format? I am curious.


    So even Apple mp3 players don't support DRM-free AAC? That strikes me as odd, to say the least.

    The LAME-encoded VBR mp3's are very nice. Using Exact Audio Copy (EAC) you can get some sweet rips. I check out some music on Usenet occasionally and wonder why they even bother ripping. . .the rips are often over-amped and poor quality. EAC takes a little work to set up properly, but it's worth it in the end. I found (or Paladin showed me, I forget now) a place that had some nice setups for EAC, so I used them and made it easier on myself.
  19. #19
    DocJon wrote:
    So even Apple mp3 players don't support DRM-free AAC? That strikes me as odd, to say the least.

    The LAME-encoded VBR mp3's are very nice. Using Exact Audio Copy (EAC) you can get some sweet rips. I check out some music on Usenet occasionally and wonder why they even bother ripping. . .the rips are often over-amped and poor quality. EAC takes a little work to set up properly, but it's worth it in the end. I found (or Paladin showed me, I forget now) a place that had some nice setups for EAC, so I used them and made it easier on myself.



    No they can as I stated above. That was the one player that did 😉
  20. #20
    Live does not use AAC because they have an in house built proprietary stream server. I've asked and basically the answer is it would be too difficult for them to make the switch.

    Live is really a slow lumbering antiquated company. They are still doing things the same way they did in 1999. As much as I appreciate having them around, they really lack innovation.

    I do keep up with the other side of broadcasting and AAC is all the rage right now because bandwidth may seem to be cheap, but in fact it is the single largest cost for broadcasting after Licensing. Think about it. Going from 64k to 32K instantly cuts your costs in half or doubles your capacity. That's a big deal.
  21. #21
    Atomm wrote:
    I do keep up with the other side of broadcasting and AAC is all the rage right now because bandwidth may seem to be cheap, but in fact it is the single largest cost for broadcasting after Licensing. Think about it. Going from 64k to 32K instantly cuts your costs in half or doubles your capacity. That's a big deal.



    True. You know though, sometimes Old School works best. Live maybe using older technology, which seem weird to say, but they are still one of the best out there. They seem much more stable than most of the new guys that come along. They also have the name recognition.

    I bought a piece of software for my HTPC that is just a player (a really nice one) for my DVD's, AVi's etc.. but it also has built in support for Live365 and a few other services. So I just click on GR1 of GR2 and it does all the work. I do not have to go through a web interface or anything to hear the station.