Owning Guns With Children

My wife and I are considering getting a handgun for the house. I won't go into details, but we feel it's something we need. However, with a 2 year old, we have some reservations about having a loaded gun that is easily accessible.

I am of the belief that you teach children to respect guns, but as my wife the Pediatric RN put it, they are fearless until they are four.... So, what can you do to have an easily accessible handgun close to the bed that is also child proof, yet easy enough to be able to use in an emergency?

Atomm wrote:
My wife and I are considering getting a handgun for the house. I won't go into details, but we feel it's something we need. However, with a 2 year old, we have some reservations about having a loaded gun that is easily accessible.

I am of the belief that you teach children to respect guns, but as my wife the Pediatric RN put it, they are fearless until they are four.... So, what can you do to have an easily accessible handgun close to the bed that is also child proof, yet easy enough to be able to use in an emergency?

I do not have children but do own, and am licensed to carry, a gun. I have a 9mm S&W handgun.

I have to admit that it is scary when they are young enough to be curious but not old enough for them to understand how dangerous they are.

Overall I believe in educating children as well as keeping the gun locked up but they do have to be old enough to understand.

Either way if I had children I would lock it in a combo safe for easy access by you and not them. Or at minimum I would put a lockable trigger guard on it.

If it is a semi automatic maybe it would be a good idea to keep the gun and the clip in a separate location.

I also believe a good shot gun is good for home defense as it is easily used by you but a child would not be able to really even lift it as it would be too heavy for them and they could not shoot themselves with it easily since the barrel is so long.

No matter what a trigger guard is a good choice.

I know they have smart guns that only fire whenever it is in very close proximity to a ring or bracelet that you could wear. That may be an option if you can get one; I am unsure the status of them being sold to the general public or the cost or how well they really work. They are working on them for police officers so only they can fire their weapon. If it was taken off of them it would be useless to anyone else.

There is however a lot of controversy on these from both sides. I am unsure where I really stand on them because I like the general idea but I am unsure I would trust it to work for me. If someone breaks into your home that thing better work...You may not get a second chance.

I am sure others here like Lexx could answer better than myself as he has guns and kids.

Actually Paladin covered it all quite well. Best solution until your child gets older is simply an electronic bed safe with either a combo ecode or a thumbprint switch.

Myself, I just locked my entire collection in a safe and gave up on having one too easy to get too. You can teach your kids everything about guns, but there are enough of them that will never listen. Guns are just way too cool from TV or movies to heed every parents warnings and fears.

I'd just spend the money on home security as your first line of defense. Its just not worth the tragedy.

Buy a dog - a big one. I have one that is the sweetest thing ever, but if she doesn't know you (and sometimes even if she does), she has the most vicious sounding bark. It even keeps the JWs and politicians out of the yard 😀

Atomm,
I am also licensed and always have been. I will not ever have a gun loaded and handy. You are far more likely to hurt yourself, a family member or someone else by mistake than to hurt an intruder. Also the most compelling arguement is this, and think long and deep about this.

at a young age I was told this advice. "Never pull a weapon if you dont' 100% intend to use it, if you do it will be used on you." If you aren't ready to pull that trigger, if you aren't ready to kill someone, then they will get the gun and use it on you. I have never been prepared to kill someone and therefore will not attempt to use a gun in defense.

Yea, we are going to get an alarm system.

I like the idea of keeping the gun and the clip separate.

If I feel my family is threatened, I will shoot to kill and I will not hesitate.

I use to feel like you until I had a child and reason to feel that there could be a reason I need to protect myself and my family.

Also dont' forget there are other kids in/out of your home over the years, parties, birthdays, etc, etc. When my daughter was just months old, a cousin of hers about 5 at the time got in my bedroom and found my empty .38.. now where are those bullets??

Scares the livin' crap outta you. As a parent, I doubt 99.99% of intruders would get past you to your child. Add a dog as Sarge suggests if you can handle the mess they make. Nevertheless, a midsize dog that grows up with your kids is pretty damn effective against any outsider making a threat.

lexx wrote:
Nevertheless, a midsize dog that grows up with your kids is pretty damn effective against any outsider making a threat.

Especially if you are in an area where that type of crime is unusual. The number of crimes in this area where I might need a gun to defend myself are so small as to be almost insignificant.

Another good idea is to be friendly with the neighbors as they'll keep an eye on your stuff when you aren't around.

I am with Sarge and Lexx here. I have my shotgun, but keep the ammo and gun in very different locations. Guns is in a safe with a trigger lock. But like Sarge said where we live is not Dallas.

Much like Sarge I had a dog growing up, sweetest thing in the world but she would have done anything to protect me. And she could sound and look mean when needed. Remember her getting upset with my HS girlfriend around, if we hugged or wrestled it scared her... And man when my father and I would wrestle around shed go nuts, cause she didn't know who to defend and who to attack.

hmmm, well my pistol is sitting on end table in the living room at home as I type this. However I have no children to worry about. If my cats can figure out how to chamber a round then I am in trouble... hehe

Anyway, you have good suggestions. I like what Paladin said about having the shotgun. That is definitely a good idea as far as small children are concerned. The pump I have is way to heavy for a child to lift. And it stays in the closet right by the bed, once again no kids though...

as the most paranoid about home security person in GRB...by far trust me. I have a few suggestions
First if you are relying on a dog for home security you are living an illusion. Dogs are a) unreliable when it comes to home defense and 😎 by far the worst, they are too vulnerable to criminal intent

I rely on a 12 gauge pump action for my home defense as well as 2 pistols I keep in different rooms. I don't keep any of the weapons loaded. The shotgun is actually for the woman, plus nothing makes you piss your pants like a shotgun being pumped. I like the hand print safe personally, its like 2 motions and now my weapon is readily at hand.

On the security system front, don't skimp on this. Full motion detectors, crash proof laminate, shatter sensors the whole works. I used to sell the systems. One key question to ask the company, who monitors the alarms and whats thier training level. Alot of these companies have call centers 8 states away from you, or even worse its some lady in an apartment monitoring your system.

Megaron wrote:
as the most paranoid about home security person in GRB...by far trust me. I have a few suggestions
First if you are relying on a dog for home security you are living an illusion. Dogs are a) unreliable when it comes to home defense and 😎 by far the worst, they are too vulnerable to criminal intent

I rely on a 12 gauge pump action for my home defense as well as 2 pistols I keep in different rooms. I don't keep any of the weapons loaded. The shotgun is actually for the woman, plus nothing makes you piss your pants like a shotgun being pumped. I like the hand print safe personally, its like 2 motions and now my weapon is readily at hand.

On the security system front, don't skimp on this. Full motion detectors, crash proof laminate, shatter sensors the whole works. I used to sell the systems. One key question to ask the company, who monitors the alarms and whats thier training level. Alot of these companies have call centers 8 states away from you, or even worse its some lady in an apartment monitoring your system.

Megaron wrote:

Megaron wrote:
as the most paranoid about home security person in GRB...by far trust me. I have a few suggestions
First if you are relying on a dog for home security you are living an illusion. Dogs are a) unreliable when it comes to home defense and 😎 by far the worst, they are too vulnerable to criminal intent

I rely on a 12 gauge pump action for my home defense as well as 2 pistols I keep in different rooms. I don't keep any of the weapons loaded. The shotgun is actually for the woman, plus nothing makes you piss your pants like a shotgun being pumped. I like the hand print safe personally, its like 2 motions and now my weapon is readily at hand.

On the security system front, don't skimp on this. Full motion detectors, crash proof laminate, shatter sensors the whole works. I used to sell the systems. One key question to ask the company, who monitors the alarms and whats thier training level. Alot of these companies have call centers 8 states away from you, or even worse its some lady in an apartment monitoring your system.

as the most paranoid about home security person in GRB...by far trust me. I have a few suggestions
First if you are relying on a dog for home security you are living an illusion. Dogs are a) unreliable when it comes to home defense and 😎 by far the worst, they are too vulnerable to criminal intent

I rely on a 12 gauge pump action for my home defense as well as 2 pistols I keep in different rooms. I don't keep any of the weapons loaded. The shotgun is actually for the woman, plus nothing makes you piss your pants like a shotgun being pumped. I like the hand print safe personally, its like 2 motions and now my weapon is readily at hand.

On the security system front, don't skimp on this. Full motion detectors, crash proof laminate, shatter sensors the whole works. I used to sell the systems. One key question to ask the company, who monitors the alarms and whats thier training level. Alot of these companies have call centers 8 states away from you, or even worse its some lady in an apartment monitoring your system.

Cool, Megaron quoted himself for truth! 😆

Wow!

Well I am from Europe and we are not really allowed to have guns. If any one breaks into your house they also have no gun (90%). Most thieves will hit an empty house iso a house with people sleeping. It does not mean we have no crime (thanks to the East Europeans), just less violent crime.

Stupid thing doubled my post when I edited it!

Ya in Europe they just stab you with knives, they usually dont shoot you.
It's a fallacy to think guns promote crime. Being human promotes crime, guns just promote gun crime.

Varg,

That reminds me of an old comedy bit from Robin Williams....

In the UK, the criminals don't have guns and the cops don't have guns. So the cop yells, "Stop or I'll shout stop again!" It's funnier to hear.....

Of course, we know this is not true. The cops actually have submachine guns. :-)

OK for what it’s worth, an unloaded gun is useless.
Period.
Keeping a shotgun unloaded and saying it’s for home defense is stupid (x2)

Common small motor skills go to hell when your adrenalin dumps in to your blood system, fine motor skills like orienting the shells and finding the feed tube, taking the gun off safe will be non existent.
Your vision goes tunnel straight away. SO now its look at the bad guy or look at my gun to load it while my heart is racing, blood is pounding in your ears your hands are shaking and it feels like you’re looking thru two straws.
Damn where did the bad guy go?

If your intent is to keep your guns unloaded – get a baseball bat, they look less lethal in a court of law.

If I know you have a dog, and I’m robbing your house. It dies first. Now on top of all your other fine motor skill problems you’re an emotional wreck, because I killed Fido that grew up with you and little Timmy.

Same goes for pistols. Wile being able to slam a magazine in to the pistol is easier than 6 shells; you still need to charge and possible take off safe, then align the small sights down a smaller sight radius….. Did I mention your shaking like a leaf?

Now have you ever fired a gun in a confined space? Room, hallway? Ever bleed from your ears form a concussive blow?
Ever think about home defense that way?

Your safe idea is ok but don’t get a biometric safe – thumb finger print reader. Not a lot of gun fight damage is to the hands but it does happen, what if your had is hurt, shot, missing???? How do you get to the gun in he safe if the finger you trained the safe to is gone, or bleeding very badly? Biometric readers do not work if your digits are dirty.
What if you train your bio reader for right hand, and your left is the only hand operable…..
Batteries die usually when you need them the most.
The list of bad things and bio readers go on and on.

Get a safe that has mechanical lock (think 5 or 6 push pins that you push in a sequence) that has a keyed back up. Keep the lock sequence simple stupid – remember I just killed your dog, I’m charging up your hallway to shut you up before you can call 911 or open your save if you have a gun. You’re shaking like a leaf, you can’t hear me because you hear your heart slamming in your ears and Timmy is crying his head off because of the loud noise and the breaking glass.


What to do: (?)
Make sure you have a kill or be killed mindset. If you waffle on the most critical moment your dead, like Bubba said, he’s not ready to kill, so if he drew on someone and hesitated.. He dies.

Is there any place that you can go to rent guns at a range, to see what works for you? Remember what’s right for you may not ever be right for your wife. She may need a safe and her own gun.
Find a registered NRA instructor to assist you, there classes are reasonable (if not free) and are very well trained to assist new shooters.
Get some training – no – get a lot of training in personal defense, even if it means traveling and using your personal vacation to do so.

Need links to good schools? I have a lot of them.
In the past 6 or so years I have managed a good / great school each year, some years 2 schools.
All relating to personal defense, the law in a defensive shooting, how not to be a victim of the legal system in the case of a personal defense shooting, stress shooting, house clearing.

Practice what you learn; teach someone else what you learn. Best way to remember is repetition.
Don’t be fooled in to a false sense of security of a weapon, it’s useless if you are not totally intimate with it.

Do NOTHING to the weapon that is not factory specific. Because after you use it, the litigation starts. Forensics takes the weapon and determines if it was altered from the factory normal operation.
If you did alter it in any way, you lose before any trial starts for being RAMBO.

If you damage but not kill the intruder they can sue for all sorts of mental anguish, personal injury, soft tissue damage…… the list is endless.

If you destroy the intruder, and they had family, the family gets you for wrongful death and sues you right out of your house in legal fees.


Unless you know the laws, have good training; keep accurate records of your shooting time and number of rounds all vital to a defense case in a court of law….. You'll look like the incompetent boob that should not be trusted with sharp sticks let alone weapons....
Learn the laws and how to defend your defencive weapon use.

I can (and will if needed) go on forever about personal and home defense.

I agree with your points except that with training, especially with how to deal with adrenalin, you can overcome the disability of keeping your gun unloaded.
I personally use the shotgun for the pyschological effect it has. If im going to kill someone, and if I'm shooting at someone that person is going to die, I'll use my .45.

I was thinking of adding a laser site to help the adrenaline issue. Does that cause any problems with the legal aspect?

The reason I don't want to use a shotgun is due to the layout of our house and the placement of my daughters bedroom outside my own.

Also, what ammunition is good for defense, yet safer for home protection because it will stop at walls, etc?

I was thinking about getting a Glock 19C due to it's size and barrel ventilation and the ability to easily mount a laser site.

I've already told my wife if we get this, then we are both going through training. I want it to be second nature.

Personally I like a .45 or at the least a .38...however those wont stop at a wall. In fact most hand guns will penetrate your average home wall. Remember a wall is basically empty space with cardboard on either side.

Another good choice would be a 10mm. Mostly cause the ammo is cheaper then a .45, which means more practice. A 9mm just doesnt have the stopping power in my opinion.

Atomm wrote:
I was thinking of adding a laser site to help the adrenaline issue. Does that cause any problems with the legal aspect?

The reason I don't want to use a shotgun is due to the layout of our house and the placement of my daughters bedroom outside my own.

I'm not VERY well-versed with guns, I'll be the first to admit. I know a bit, but I've never hunted, or purchased a gun for self-defense, so couple that with my lack of military experience and you'll have an idea how limited my knowledge must be . . . but you should look into alternative loads if you're concerned about over-penetration. I THINK there are shotgun loads that are designed to reduce that. . . probably most calibers have some load you can buy to reduce penetration thru walls, with a lower charge or fragmenting bullets.

Something to look into.

Megaron wrote:
Personally I like a .45 or at the least a .38...however those wont stop at a wall. In fact most hand guns will penetrate your average home wall. Remember a wall is basically empty space with cardboard on either side.

Another good choice would be a 10mm. Mostly cause the ammo is cheaper then a .45, which means more practice. A 9mm just doesnt have the stopping power in my opinion.

True some pistol caliber rounds will penetrate walls, but there are rounds now that are strictly for home defence.

Hornady's TAP - FPD line has shown consistent and repeatable performance in personal defense with out over penetration. Thru solid structure or human.

10mm?? Cheap?? no. Typically you will see around a 20 - 30 % premium for 10mm. presently 10mm is selling for $200 for 500 rounds, $170 for .45acp and $175 for 500 of 9mm

Also I can think of 4 guns that are new manufacture in 10mm all other manufactures have dropped the "full size" 10mm, and transferred to the .40S&W which in reality is considered a 10mm Kruz or 10mm short.

The .40 is a violent round, exhibiting all the "worst" recoil traits of other rounds. It pushes straight back with a heavy "snap" - it also produces muzzle rise.
While I do not notice this, others that have shot my P229 in .40 also notice a torque with the muzzle rotating in an upward left arc (say from 12 O'clock to about 10:30)

In my opinion the .40S&W is a very bad caliber for the beginner.

A 9mm just doesnt have the stopping power in my opinion.

Rubbish

In 1980 -1990 I would agree with you, but with modern ballistics, ammunition development and production that statement is antiquated. As my dress code dictates, I carry a subcompact 9mm with no reservations what so ever in it’s ability to defend my self or family.

I agree with your points except that with training, especially with how to deal with adrenalin, you can overcome the disability of keeping your gun unloaded.
I personally use the shotgun for the pyschological effect it has. If im going to kill someone, and if I'm shooting at someone that person is going to die, I'll use my .45.

What’s wrong with training?
Your right you can overcome adrenal dumps, with proper training and you being aware of it happening..

And overcoming the disability of an unloaded weapon for personal defense is stupid just dumb!
Again, if your going to have a gun (Pistol or rifle et all) unloaded and think you might possibly have the dexterity or even TIME to load - charge - sight – take off safe then shoot an intruder. You’re fooling your self on to a deadly sense of ramboism – but honestly it’s your life your gambling with. By all means, don’t stop.

And racking a shot gun for intimidation…. HAHAHAHAHA so let me get this straight.
Rabid tweaker breaks in to your house, you have one choice, your unloaded pistol that you need to load - charge - make unsafe - aim and shoot – OR – rack an empty shotgun for intimidation.

Shuck-shuck (hmmm damn he did not stop) [yells] Stop or I’ll rack my empty gun again!!!!![yells]
Shuck-shuck Shuck-shuck Shuck-shuck Shuck-shuck Shuck-shuck
Hmmmm no dice, he’s on me….. Gee I wish I had actually put real ammo in this rifle and not peter pan never ammo……

The only intimidation a robber / rapist / drugged out tweaker understands is BOOM

Attom
I was thinking of adding a laser site to help the adrenaline issue. Does that cause any problems with the legal aspect?

That is a very good question. And it would depend on how rabid the prosecutor is. There are two MAJOR laser manufacturers. Crimson Trace whose lasers are external to the firearm and Lasermax whose lasers are internal to the arm. With a Lasermax laser you MUST alter the original manufacture of the pistol, a rabid prosecutor would eat you alive for altering the pistol, where the CT laser is added and removed with no alteration of function or parts inside or out of of the arm.

The reason I don't want to use a shotgun is due to the layout of our house and the placement of my daughters bedroom outside my own.

If you load with #1 or #2 you will have far lass over penetration then with #00 or slug.
Review this site called the Box-O-Truth

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

for all sorts of ammo tests on common items.

Also, what ammunition is good for defense, yet safer for home protection because it will stop at walls, etc?

Hornady TAP – FPD (For Personal Defense) is great. Speer GDJHP (Gold dot jacketed hollow point is a great GREAT great round.
Note the listed agencies below ALL use Speed GDJHP bar none.

I was thinking about getting a Glock 19C due to it's size and barrel ventilation and the ability to easily mount a laser site.

I wold not recommend a compensated gun for personal defense. Reason being is in a dark area - room - house - nightly walk etc when discharging a compensated barrel vents all of it’s hot gasses straight up, in to your line of sight. Thus removing your night vision, where as a non Comp barrel all the gases are discharged straight down the boar axis.

Also the Comp barrels are very noisy, never -repeat- NEVER shoot a Comp barrel with out hearing protetion..... Bad. A Comp barrel is never recommended by the true training “professionals” in any PD situations.


I like Glock (Combat Tupperware…heheh) but only the generation 1 pistols, they do not have the finger groves for your hand, for some reason my hands do not fit the new Gen 2 and Gen 3 pistols. Too bad.

I've already told my wife if we get this, then we are both going through training. I want it to be second nature

Stellar

The most critical things to remember are how comfortable with the fire arm will you be?
If you buy a .45 because everyone says it’s the American round or if you buy a semi-auto because you think there cool or you’ll need more rounds you may be short sighting your self.

Typical home/personal defense shooting are boiled down to 3 rounds. I would feel slightly under armed with a .380 but any caliber larger would do just fine.
9mm - .38spl - .357 - .357 SIG - .40S&W - 10mm - .44 - .45acp are all proven rounds.

Remember though a hit with a 9mm will always be far more effective than a miss with a .45
It boils down to (borrowing from the real-estate mantra) Shot placement - Shot placement - Shot placement.

And you buy a gun you flinch with or are uncomfortable with/carrying/handling will be totally useless in the time of need because subconsciously you’ll still be afraid of it, and not use it a tool it was intended to be used for.

Sorry for the run on thread…. But another thought on weapon purchase. Do some research on your local Police, State Police and Sheriff departments. What do they carry for a side arm? What rounds are used in their weapon?
God forbid you ever have to use it to defend your self, by arming and shooting the very same weapon and round as your local “xxx” is far more defendable against a rabid prosecutor than your own choice of caliber and arm.

If it is the approved side arm they why is it bad for you to own???? Hard to argue against.

Personally my typical pistol is a SIG P229 in .357 SIG. The SIG P229 in .357 SIG is currently the standard issue firearm carried by agents of the United States Secret Service, Virginia State Police, Federal Air Marshals, the Internal Revenue Service, Idaho State Police Texas Department of Public Safety and various other local and state departments. In most cases, it has replaced 10 mm/.40 S&W and 9 mm "Para" loads.

Duck I agree with you that shucking the shotgun isnt the end all. But that coupled with a good alarm system in your house, will 9 times out of 10 be good enough. Also remember you break into my house..I know your coming. My alarm will sound and I will have the time to load my .45 and then your dead.
My feelings on the 9mm. First I have seen people hit with a 9mm and keep going. In fact I treated a guy hit 5 times with a 9mm by an under trained law enforcement officer and he lived to sue the department. You do not keep going when hit by a .45. It all comes down to competence with the weapon tho.

Atomm wrote:
I was thinking of adding a laser site to help the adrenaline issue. Does that cause any problems with the legal aspect?

The reason I don't want to use a shotgun is due to the layout of our house and the placement of my daughters bedroom outside my own.

Also, what ammunition is good for defense, yet safer for home protection because it will stop at walls, etc?

I was thinking about getting a Glock 19C due to it's size and barrel ventilation and the ability to easily mount a laser site.

I've already told my wife if we get this, then we are both going through training. I want it to be second nature.

Since you are looking for a lower power solution, I know many would think of this as the wussy answer, but Have you thought of a BB or Pellet gun? I have a semi-automatic that takes a magazine of 15 bb's. I keep it mostly to take care of small animals since i live out in the country. Mine is gas charged and can go through a wall though.

Raze was this you?
Happened today too.......
Stranger things have happened.

The robber described below, Riccardo Crossland, who used a pellet gun to rob a man who was walking a pit bull (the victim also turned out to be a nonresident permit holder with a .45), would be a good candidate for the Darwin Award, except that Mr. Crossland survived the encounter.

Man with concealed weapon shoots alleged robber
By Bill Bryan

[email protected] | 314-340-8950
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
03/14/2007

Riccardo Crossland used a pellet gun to rob a man legally carrying a real gun outside a Bridgeton motel Tuesday morning and ended up shot, police said.

Crossland went off to a hospital with wounds of the hand and leg; the victim went on his way with the congratulations of police. "Here was a robbery where we have a good ending for once," said Bridgeton Police Major Don Steinman, who said the shooting was clearly self-defense.

The 23-year-old victim holds a concealed-carry permit from his home state of Florida, which is honored in Missouri, officials said. Advertisement

"He had his gun aimed at my face," the robbery victim said in an interview granted on the condition that his name and hometown not be used. "I definitely thought he was going to shoot me, so I started firing."

Crossland's weapon turned out to be a pellet gun that resembled a .45-caliber handgun, police said. The victim had a real .45 in his waistband.

Crossland, 39, of the 7100 block of Beulah Avenue in Jennings, was taken to DePaul Health Center, police said, for treatment of his wounds, which were not considered life-threatening. He was charged with first-degree robbery and armed criminal action.

Police said Crossland is on probation for a drug-related offense, and has convictions for robbery, burglary, stealing and drug-related crimes.

The victim gave this account: He had stayed several days at the Motel 6, near Interstate 270 and St. Charles Rock Road, while looking at a race car engine to buy from a man in St. Louis. About 3 a.m. Tuesday, he took his pit bull on an errand for food. Just outside the motel, he encountered two men who asked questions about the dog before one of them pulled out what looked like a gun and announced a holdup.

"The one guy started to pat me down, and I didn't want him to find my gun, so I was handing them over everything I could," the victim said. "I was just waiting for the right opportunity to get my gun."

The robbers then started to depart with the man's wallet, necklace, ring and cash.

"The guy with the gun was walking away with the gun at his side, but then he turned around and aimed it at my face," the victim said. "I definitely thought he was going to shoot me, so I pulled my gun out and started firing." He fired seven shots and the pair fled. Crossland was found about a quarter of a mile away, hiding on a parking lot in the 12900 block of St. Charles Rock Road, police said. The accomplice was not caught.

The victim said he had the concealed-carry permit for two years but had never used the weapon. Missouri has no tracking system for cases in which people with concealed-carry permits use their weapons.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stor...2B?OpenDocument

Megaron This tard was shot with a .45 and walked away....... were back to he had a loaded weapon at the ready. Was willing to use it. (and did) but still filed to destroy the retard robber with a pellet gun.....

It boils down to one thing and one thing ONLY!
Shot placement - Shot placement - Shot placement
Caliber of choice is secondary!

Ok but this perp wasnt shot center mass. My 5 9mm round victim had 3 of them center mass

We need to just agree to disagree on weather or not choice of caliber, personal ready condition, and everything else associated with personal protection matter.

You have your ideals and I mine. Attom needs to make his decisions for himself also, which may fall somewhere at one of our two ends or some where else entirely.

At least you did not say don't own guns just call 911 the police are here to protect you......

Duck wrote:
At least you did not say don't own guns just call 911 the police are here to protect you......

Lol, that would be like living in NewYorkCity, OMG. I'm surprised people don't get robbed more often there.

As far as guns go, I've never seen anything wrong with either my 9mm or the .357, but I still dont' like to keep them very accessible because of the kids. Once they leave home thats another matter.

I agree, the safe with the 5 pushbutton release would be best. I hadn't considered the thumb tech problems that have been mentioned since.

The best part of this thread was no one ran up and said omg you cant own guns...then your just promoting violence. Stupid hippies

Megaron wrote:
The best part of this thread was no one ran up and said omg you cant own guns...then your just promoting violence. Stupid hippies

You will take my gun from me only if you prey it out of my cold dead hands!!!!

Come on, you know SOMEONE just had to say it!! 😉

I know this thread is getting further and further away from Attoms original question.
But I have had a few conversations with Roadrep from Glock talk forum in the past.

An interesting read about his self defence shooting of two Gangsta Disciples gang members in October 1998
While Roadrep has removed his post from Glock talk the thread lives on else where (it is the Internet...)

For clarification
GT and GTer = Glock Talk and Glock Talker
COM = Center of Mass the triangular area from nipple to nipple converging to the central point of your belt buckle.
Failure drill = 2 shots COM and if the perpetrators (usually) head is still in the same location it was in after receiving 2 COM, one (or 2) rapid shots to the head. Also referred to as the Mozambique drill by the late Col. Jeff Cooper.

Roadreps thread below:

http://p207.ezboard.com/Self-Defense-Situa...opicID=70.topic

The Mozambique Drill considers the deficiency of the pistol round in stopping an adversary. Statistics show that reactions in gunfights are extremely irregular -- one must be prepared for the worst. Many times it is the case that after absorbing the trauma of the first shots, the enemy will disregard further ballistic insult. It has been pointed out that simply "more shots" are not the answer. The Mozambique Drill instructs the shooter to place a double-tap in the center of mass, followed by a carefully aimed head shot.

Contrary to popular belief, the immediate aim of defensive shooting is to incapacitate a target so as to render that person unable to attack. Unlike what is commonly seen on television and in movies, gunshot wounds rarely kill instantly. The incapacitation caused by gunshots is the result of neurocirculatory shock. The trauma resulting from impact and wound channel after two shots to a target's center of mass will produce a reflexive nervous system collapse in about 96% of cases. In the other 4%, either an adrenaline rush or the effect of stimulant drugs will override this reflex, and further shots will not produce this instantly-incapacitating shock. Because of this, the third shot should be aimed to destroy the brain, ensuring that the target's nervous system will shut down and leave the target unable to attack. This third shot is most effective when placed between a target's eyes as a higher shot is more likely to deflect off of hard bone and a lower shot is unlikely to produce the nervous system damage required to instantly stop an attacker.

Also known as the 'failure to stop drill' or '2+1 drill'. As part of the U.S. National Guard Combat Pistol and other military combat pistol competitions, the Mozambique Drill is called Body Armor Defeat, and is frequently a discriminator between the average shooter and the gifted shooter, especially when it is timed.

Well Well Well... home defense. Duck seems to be a bit up on his game when talking about ammunition, though saying a pistol is better than a shotgun is a fallacy when it comes to home defense. There are choice bits of ammunition that are made for self-defense when using a pistol, ammunition that is made to shatter on sheetrock but penetrate softer -skin-. Useful but expensive.

Duck wrote:Keeping a shotgun unloaded and saying it’s for home defense is stupid (x2)

Common small motor skills go to hell when your adrenalin dumps in to your blood system, fine motor skills like orienting the shells and finding the feed tube, taking the gun off safe will be non existent.
Your vision goes tunnel straight away. SO now its look at the bad guy or look at my gun to load it while my heart is racing, blood is pounding in your ears your hands are shaking and it feels like you’re looking thru two straws.
Damn where did the bad guy go?

If your intent is to keep your guns unloaded – get a baseball bat, they look less lethal in a court of law.

Now the Shotgun fallacy.. I like the idea of keeping a baseball bat around but then I look at my 32" barreled shotgun and I remember that I have a large metal object that will work just the same and if I happen to have the deterity to break it open and load the shells in the open holes I will be even better as my 'baseball bat' can propel little balls of lead at high velocity, or little pellets of salt if its just a kid running around on my property... oh wait yeah thats right I am using my shotgun and my head, everything at hand is a weapon just because it is made to fire shells or other ammunition does not mean it is unable to do anything else. The fine motor skills it takes to swing a shotgun and hit something are limited. The assumption that all shotguns are pumps just makes an ass out of you.

I personally take my shotgun out just about every week for clay shooting(or as often as I can), an over-under 12 gauage beauty she is. It is not as pricey as a pistol and one hell of a lot more friendly to get aquainted with. I say that as there are a lot more chances to go to a range where there are moving targets with a shotgun then there are with a pistol.

As for adrenaline action and nerves and all that, and asking yourself if you can or will you kill. All depends on your lifestyle, none of the big bad macho shit, when you do, and I have, kill someone there is most definitely a adrenaline rush and no matter how much you practice some people just cannot shoot under that pressure. A common assault rifle will accurately shoot at 800 yards yet most confrontations will occur inside of 20 ft and still it is not unheard of for both persons to miss with their chosen weapons, under 20ft away! Its the adrenaline, you forgt to line up the sights, you forget about trigger control, you forget that your hand placement on a pistol decides where your finger falls on the trigger and which in turn decides a portiong of hw far off target you will be -the 10 o'clock offset that Duck was talking about-, and lastly but most importantly your adrenaline will be flying, or should be.. if its not the ohh shit factor kicking in to give you a pucker factor of nng and your breathing will be way way off. Until you have the training and are most comfortable in every situation with you handgun.. I am not talking concealed handgun courses, not going to an indoor range and putting on nice nifty earplugs and glasses and setting up a pretty target, I am talking more serious shite. Go get a sim-round custom that you can take out with some friends and shoot for a realistic kick and some serious pain as you shoot each other, a realistic paintball simulation. When you have bullets flying past your head... -hrmm- wait a second even that training will mean shite when you are dealing with in-home defense.

The common factor you have to think about was mentioned, can you and will you. Can you pull the trigger, will you remain calm enough to pull said trigger -until it happens you truly do not know, just be confident in yourself and squeeze-? Will you point the barrel at least in the general direction of the poor fool charging after you. And lastly will the weapon you have in hand be effective when it runs out of ammunition -it most certainly will if you do not have a contingency-? Hell, a shotgun just has to be pointed in the general vicinity of the bastard.

As far as safety in the house, the child is not just a danger to himself he is a danger to others, no matter the size of the weapon. Its all a matter of knowledge and height. If the kid knows what it is and what it can do, including taking him out and having take a pull at the trigger (which if you have never seen a kid get hit with a shotgun it is quite the sight) then there is a on degree of safety, if the weapon is out of sight out of mind anoother degree is there, and if it is out of reach of the toddler.. hell there is yet another bonus. But there is still a chance...

My shotgun may only have 2 hole slots, but at least I can take it duck hunting/clay shooting and have a recreation with it. That and I can load it faster than most can load a pump and get a steady stream of shots going off, and then when it is out of ammo and I have no time to reload.. hell tht steel baseball bat has some wicked curves and sharp edges to wack whatever the hell I want, a simple jab and bash and any assailant will be wishing his head wasn't being pounded through my tile floor. Saying you need a baseball bat rather than a shotgun is retarded, unless you have an fear of weapons. Saying a pistol is better than a shotgun, I don't buy that, I thing the shotgun is a better value for the fun factor. I would get a AR-15 due to my familiarity with that model style from my M-16A2 heritage but there is nowhere that I can go that is easy to shoot and get practice with any sort of moving targets. Pistols are the same, though with the price you have to pay you might as well get a decent shotgun and a shell loader for the price.

All that said in the rambling man fashion, I sure wouldn't mind getting me a Calico or a Hornet style pistol. Too bad Calicos are now running upwards of 600+, style a 100 round magazine would definitely ensure prolonged exposure. A hornet would just be a nice attraction, no stopping power but fun to have.

Whoa, who is this guy and what did he do with Silent?

Atomm wrote:
Whoa, who is this guy and what did he do with Silent?

:inno:

Silent I completely agree with your ramble....

No issues, but a point of interest.
A 32" BBL O/U is a beast to negotiate in a house with limited hallway and door openings.
No room to move or maneuver.

A dedicated HD weapon should be as small as legal (or as small as you want to register a SBR legal gun in other words) 18" is factory smallest, losing the 14" will make a big difference.
My thinking at least.

My shotgun may only have 2 hole slots, but at least I can take it duck hunting

🤔

Saying you need a baseball bat rather than a shotgun is retarded, unless you have an fear of weapons. Saying a pistol is better than a shotgun, I don't buy that, I thing the shotgun is a better value for the fun factor.

#1 My point exactly on the bat..... there all tools, some are better then others.
If you get a gun learn how to use it, and not be scared of it.
If your scared of it, you'll never use it to anywhere near it's full potential.
So if it scares you, you have no place owning a gun, get a bat.

#2 Shot guns are great - no doubt. They can even feed your family if you hunt.
But you can't very well hide it under a article of clothing and go out on the town/movie/dinner like with a pistol.

Were back to there all tools designed to do specific functions.
Choose them wisely and apply them correctly; learn how to use them well.